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	<title>Comments on: Shot by Men With Pens (Take 3)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.fluentself.com/blog/biggification/men-with-pens-take-3/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.fluentself.com/blog/biggification/men-with-pens-take-3/</link>
	<description>When you need some destuckification.</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 04:37:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Havi Brooks</title>
		<link>http://www.fluentself.com/blog/biggification/men-with-pens-take-3/#comment-574</link>
		<dc:creator>Havi Brooks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2008 21:45:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fluentself.com/?p=163#comment-574</guid>
		<description>@Lisa- This is great. Thanks so much for adding this! 

I agree that voice is really powerful. Voice + clarity = ??? It's a hard thing to nail, but I'm definitely having fun with it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Lisa- This is great. Thanks so much for adding this! </p>
<p>I agree that voice is really powerful. Voice + clarity = ??? It&#8217;s a hard thing to nail, but I&#8217;m definitely having fun with it.</p>
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		<title>By: Lisa</title>
		<link>http://www.fluentself.com/blog/biggification/men-with-pens-take-3/#comment-521</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 16:15:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fluentself.com/?p=163#comment-521</guid>
		<description>Hi, Havi! Coming a little late to the discussion, but I think that's okay. Your posts about Men with Pens prompted me to engage their drive-by service for my own site. Why would I do that? As anyone who clicks through will be able to tell, I design and produce websites. Why would I ask for another producer's opinion? Because you can never have too many eyes on what you're putting out there, especially when the eyes are as acute as the Pen Men's.

But the reason I bothered to comment here is that your navigation label dilemma is something that everyone who puts up a site and wants it to be GOOD struggles with. Most people don't realize until they get into the process just how much subtle, almost-hidden bits of WRITING goes into making a site. The articles, the posts, the "stuff" is really only a part of it. Site titles are vital -- every site should have a good descriptive title and a good descriptive subtitle. Navigation labels are second only to the site (and individual page) titles in importance. The Men are right-on that clarity is needed, but you're right, too, that your own voice is important. You have a distinctive, disarmingly inarticulate style that puts your readers at ease. So while your labels may not be perfectly clear, they do carry your voice. Just my two cents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, Havi! Coming a little late to the discussion, but I think that&#8217;s okay. Your posts about Men with Pens prompted me to engage their drive-by service for my own site. Why would I do that? As anyone who clicks through will be able to tell, I design and produce websites. Why would I ask for another producer&#8217;s opinion? Because you can never have too many eyes on what you&#8217;re putting out there, especially when the eyes are as acute as the Pen Men&#8217;s.</p>
<p>But the reason I bothered to comment here is that your navigation label dilemma is something that everyone who puts up a site and wants it to be GOOD struggles with. Most people don&#8217;t realize until they get into the process just how much subtle, almost-hidden bits of WRITING goes into making a site. The articles, the posts, the &#8220;stuff&#8221; is really only a part of it. Site titles are vital &#8212; every site should have a good descriptive title and a good descriptive subtitle. Navigation labels are second only to the site (and individual page) titles in importance. The Men are right-on that clarity is needed, but you&#8217;re right, too, that your own voice is important. You have a distinctive, disarmingly inarticulate style that puts your readers at ease. So while your labels may not be perfectly clear, they do carry your voice. Just my two cents.</p>
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		<title>By: Emma McCreary</title>
		<link>http://www.fluentself.com/blog/biggification/men-with-pens-take-3/#comment-315</link>
		<dc:creator>Emma McCreary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2008 23:46:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fluentself.com/?p=163#comment-315</guid>
		<description>LOL, maybe it's ALL subjective.

I thought of this phrase: Habits Boutique

Although, that sounds like maybe you are selling habits.

I just have always wanted to use the word "boutique" in something to mean "store". 

Hmm. 

Emma

Emma McCrearys last blog post..&lt;a href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/taoofprosperity/~3/358915856/" rel="nofollow"&gt;Do You Need to be Aggressive to Get Sales?&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL, maybe it&#8217;s ALL subjective.</p>
<p>I thought of this phrase: Habits Boutique</p>
<p>Although, that sounds like maybe you are selling habits.</p>
<p>I just have always wanted to use the word &#8220;boutique&#8221; in something to mean &#8220;store&#8221;. </p>
<p>Hmm. </p>
<p>Emma</p>
<p>Emma McCrearys last blog post..<a href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/taoofprosperity/~3/358915856/" rel="nofollow">Do You Need to be Aggressive to Get Sales?</a></p>
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		<title>By: Naomi Dunford</title>
		<link>http://www.fluentself.com/blog/biggification/men-with-pens-take-3/#comment-313</link>
		<dc:creator>Naomi Dunford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2008 19:09:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fluentself.com/?p=163#comment-313</guid>
		<description>Haven't read the comments because I suck. Also, I am a Very Busy and Important Person.

Love the "store". Keep the quotes.

Love "sound like you?". I am only visual and I am not weirded out by it. 

Do not love "might be you?". You've got it as a question but it doesn't sound like a question. It sounds like something that should've been longer but you ran out of space.

I love me some advice giving. I should offer the same service as the Pen Men. Although I think I'd be too abrupt. I'd say things like, "Your website's cool" or "Your website sucks rocks". Then people would be all, "um, why?" and I'd be all, "don't bother me I gave you your answer now fuck off".

Thinking on it, maybe we'll leave it to the Pen Men.

Naomi Dunfords last blog post..&lt;a href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/Ittybiz/~3/362062925/" rel="nofollow"&gt;What Can YOU Do With Whipped Cream?&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Haven&#8217;t read the comments because I suck. Also, I am a Very Busy and Important Person.</p>
<p>Love the &#8220;store&#8221;. Keep the quotes.</p>
<p>Love &#8220;sound like you?&#8221;. I am only visual and I am not weirded out by it. </p>
<p>Do not love &#8220;might be you?&#8221;. You&#8217;ve got it as a question but it doesn&#8217;t sound like a question. It sounds like something that should&#8217;ve been longer but you ran out of space.</p>
<p>I love me some advice giving. I should offer the same service as the Pen Men. Although I think I&#8217;d be too abrupt. I&#8217;d say things like, &#8220;Your website&#8217;s cool&#8221; or &#8220;Your website sucks rocks&#8221;. Then people would be all, &#8220;um, why?&#8221; and I&#8217;d be all, &#8220;don&#8217;t bother me I gave you your answer now fuck off&#8221;.</p>
<p>Thinking on it, maybe we&#8217;ll leave it to the Pen Men.</p>
<p>Naomi Dunfords last blog post..<a href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/Ittybiz/~3/362062925/" rel="nofollow">What Can YOU Do With Whipped Cream?</a></p>
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		<title>By: Emma McCreary</title>
		<link>http://www.fluentself.com/blog/biggification/men-with-pens-take-3/#comment-303</link>
		<dc:creator>Emma McCreary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 01:16:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fluentself.com/?p=163#comment-303</guid>
		<description>I think the deal with convention is not that you should use it b/c everyone else does - but that your perception of "off-putting" might be unique to you and thus relying on that will not make the most usable site. I venture to guess that most of the folks looking at "The Store" would not think "off-putting over-selling" but "Oh hey I can buy things here". I guess what I'm saying is your aversion to it might color the reality that the phrase "the store" may have very few connotations to most people. And since "most people" is who you are trying to make your site easier to use for...not yourself...that's the point of using convention in web navigation. But anyway. You probably already have thought about this. OK, I am taking my web-usability-preaching hat off now.

Emma McCrearys last blog post..&lt;a href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/taoofprosperity/~3/358915856/" rel="nofollow"&gt;Do You Need to be Aggressive to Get Sales?&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the deal with convention is not that you should use it b/c everyone else does - but that your perception of &#8220;off-putting&#8221; might be unique to you and thus relying on that will not make the most usable site. I venture to guess that most of the folks looking at &#8220;The Store&#8221; would not think &#8220;off-putting over-selling&#8221; but &#8220;Oh hey I can buy things here&#8221;. I guess what I&#8217;m saying is your aversion to it might color the reality that the phrase &#8220;the store&#8221; may have very few connotations to most people. And since &#8220;most people&#8221; is who you are trying to make your site easier to use for&#8230;not yourself&#8230;that&#8217;s the point of using convention in web navigation. But anyway. You probably already have thought about this. OK, I am taking my web-usability-preaching hat off now.</p>
<p>Emma McCrearys last blog post..<a href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/taoofprosperity/~3/358915856/" rel="nofollow">Do You Need to be Aggressive to Get Sales?</a></p>
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		<title>By: Havi Brooks</title>
		<link>http://www.fluentself.com/blog/biggification/men-with-pens-take-3/#comment-301</link>
		<dc:creator>Havi Brooks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 00:43:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fluentself.com/?p=163#comment-301</guid>
		<description>Interesting stuff, guys. Thanks for the thoughtful comments -- I knew this was the right place to ask. 

Hmm, shop. Shop by itself not so much. But "The shop" is kinda cute. 

I definitely don't think of &lt;em&gt;The "Store" &lt;/em&gt; as self-deprecating. It hadn't occurred to me that other people might. If anything I tend to think that my products are so ridiculously better than everyone else's that I have to tone it down to not sound hype-ey and exaggerated. 

Store for me sets off that feeling I get when I look up a meditation teacher I really like to get a bite of something to think about. And then their site is all "Buy now!" and it's just kind of off-putting. 

I want the products to be find-able for the people who really need them and need that help and support, but the store metaphor doesn't work for me, even though it's a convention. 

Will think on that some more. 

You're all awesome for showing up and tossing your feedback into the mix. Love it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting stuff, guys. Thanks for the thoughtful comments &#8212; I knew this was the right place to ask. </p>
<p>Hmm, shop. Shop by itself not so much. But &#8220;The shop&#8221; is kinda cute. </p>
<p>I definitely don&#8217;t think of <em>The &#8220;Store&#8221; </em> as self-deprecating. It hadn&#8217;t occurred to me that other people might. If anything I tend to think that my products are so ridiculously better than everyone else&#8217;s that I have to tone it down to not sound hype-ey and exaggerated. </p>
<p>Store for me sets off that feeling I get when I look up a meditation teacher I really like to get a bite of something to think about. And then their site is all &#8220;Buy now!&#8221; and it&#8217;s just kind of off-putting. </p>
<p>I want the products to be find-able for the people who really need them and need that help and support, but the store metaphor doesn&#8217;t work for me, even though it&#8217;s a convention. </p>
<p>Will think on that some more. </p>
<p>You&#8217;re all awesome for showing up and tossing your feedback into the mix. Love it.</p>
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		<title>By: GirlPie</title>
		<link>http://www.fluentself.com/blog/biggification/men-with-pens-take-3/#comment-300</link>
		<dc:creator>GirlPie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 23:06:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fluentself.com/?p=163#comment-300</guid>
		<description>Issue #1 - I like Brandon's You?&#124;Me&#124;Us?  -- charming.  Or maybe "Recognize This?"  Although I never saw "Is this you?" on a blog or site before (just not my circle so it wasn't a cliche to me) and I instantly knew what it meant (how else can it be interpreted?) so it was very clear; just no concern on my first visit (didn't know what your site/blog were, just that Naomi mentioned you, then fell for the voice despite the subject.)

Issue #3 some more -- I like the "The Shop" suggestion, since you're presenting tools for sale that people use t (I gather) work on their stuff, so it also conveys a bit of a work shop place (as opposed to a workshop product -- different animal.)  In a "taking the old clunker down to the shop for a tune-up" way.

Issue #4 -- disagree that 'habits' has a negative connotation or association... I think of them as my automatic habits like brushing my teeth, covering my mouth when I sneeze, facing my dollars the same way, and opening doors for the elderly.  They started as choices. So I think of bad habits as choices that I haven't changed for the better yet, but 'Habits Blog" was clear -- you blog about habits (and patterns) and the rest of your tag, headers and tabs make it clear that you're not just talking about elbows on the table.  But 'Blog' is clear, in a transparent way... the rest of your site seems so colorful that it seems a bit strident in contrast.   I don't like to throw the clever baby out with the murky bathwater, but if your spacing is dictating your voice in the tabs, those are the parameters you play inside. If you had time for "Blogification" I'd instantly get your voice and the facts.

Too bad your e-mailers don't comment so we could all learn from you and them sharing here... and reduce your inbox and increase your comment numbers...  If you've ever thought that too, maybe a line above the 'email me' form that suggests they share in comments instead?

Thanks for letting us peek into your process - very interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Issue #1 - I like Brandon&#8217;s You?|Me|Us?  &#8212; charming.  Or maybe &#8220;Recognize This?&#8221;  Although I never saw &#8220;Is this you?&#8221; on a blog or site before (just not my circle so it wasn&#8217;t a cliche to me) and I instantly knew what it meant (how else can it be interpreted?) so it was very clear; just no concern on my first visit (didn&#8217;t know what your site/blog were, just that Naomi mentioned you, then fell for the voice despite the subject.)</p>
<p>Issue #3 some more &#8212; I like the &#8220;The Shop&#8221; suggestion, since you&#8217;re presenting tools for sale that people use t (I gather) work on their stuff, so it also conveys a bit of a work shop place (as opposed to a workshop product &#8212; different animal.)  In a &#8220;taking the old clunker down to the shop for a tune-up&#8221; way.</p>
<p>Issue #4 &#8212; disagree that &#8216;habits&#8217; has a negative connotation or association&#8230; I think of them as my automatic habits like brushing my teeth, covering my mouth when I sneeze, facing my dollars the same way, and opening doors for the elderly.  They started as choices. So I think of bad habits as choices that I haven&#8217;t changed for the better yet, but &#8216;Habits Blog&#8221; was clear &#8212; you blog about habits (and patterns) and the rest of your tag, headers and tabs make it clear that you&#8217;re not just talking about elbows on the table.  But &#8216;Blog&#8217; is clear, in a transparent way&#8230; the rest of your site seems so colorful that it seems a bit strident in contrast.   I don&#8217;t like to throw the clever baby out with the murky bathwater, but if your spacing is dictating your voice in the tabs, those are the parameters you play inside. If you had time for &#8220;Blogification&#8221; I&#8217;d instantly get your voice and the facts.</p>
<p>Too bad your e-mailers don&#8217;t comment so we could all learn from you and them sharing here&#8230; and reduce your inbox and increase your comment numbers&#8230;  If you&#8217;ve ever thought that too, maybe a line above the &#8216;email me&#8217; form that suggests they share in comments instead?</p>
<p>Thanks for letting us peek into your process - very interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: Emma McCreary</title>
		<link>http://www.fluentself.com/blog/biggification/men-with-pens-take-3/#comment-299</link>
		<dc:creator>Emma McCreary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 23:06:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fluentself.com/?p=163#comment-299</guid>
		<description>Havi! Sorry I missed you yesterday. Hopefully we'll run into each other in meatspace soon. Here is some feedback on your nav:

1. I've never liked "Is This You?", I don't know why it's so popular in the industry. If it were me, I'd name it "Who I work with". Because that is what the page describes. But perhaps that sounds stand-offish to people. Maybe ask on Biznik and see if anyone has a better version?

2. When I read 'the "store"', the voice in my head saying it sounds snide and self-deprecating. Like it's not real enough to not be in quotes. Like the products don't deserve to be called sell-able. Like you don't believe in them yourself. I know you do, but that's the connotation I get in my head from reading the phrase with the quotes.

Online, the word store in a link means "area of the site where you can buy things". It doesn't mean "I sell enough things to warrant a retail space at the mall". So I would take off the quotes if it were me.

Emma McCrearys last blog post..&lt;a href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/taoofprosperity/~3/358915856/" rel="nofollow"&gt;Do You Need to be Aggressive to Get Sales?&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Havi! Sorry I missed you yesterday. Hopefully we&#8217;ll run into each other in meatspace soon. Here is some feedback on your nav:</p>
<p>1. I&#8217;ve never liked &#8220;Is This You?&#8221;, I don&#8217;t know why it&#8217;s so popular in the industry. If it were me, I&#8217;d name it &#8220;Who I work with&#8221;. Because that is what the page describes. But perhaps that sounds stand-offish to people. Maybe ask on Biznik and see if anyone has a better version?</p>
<p>2. When I read &#8216;the &#8220;store&#8221;&#8216;, the voice in my head saying it sounds snide and self-deprecating. Like it&#8217;s not real enough to not be in quotes. Like the products don&#8217;t deserve to be called sell-able. Like you don&#8217;t believe in them yourself. I know you do, but that&#8217;s the connotation I get in my head from reading the phrase with the quotes.</p>
<p>Online, the word store in a link means &#8220;area of the site where you can buy things&#8221;. It doesn&#8217;t mean &#8220;I sell enough things to warrant a retail space at the mall&#8221;. So I would take off the quotes if it were me.</p>
<p>Emma McCrearys last blog post..<a href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/taoofprosperity/~3/358915856/" rel="nofollow">Do You Need to be Aggressive to Get Sales?</a></p>
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		<title>By: GirlPie</title>
		<link>http://www.fluentself.com/blog/biggification/men-with-pens-take-3/#comment-297</link>
		<dc:creator>GirlPie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 20:26:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fluentself.com/?p=163#comment-297</guid>
		<description>re: Issue #3 -- 
Maybe the MWP didn't get what "stuff" meant in that context because... well, I can't think of a reason, but since your site may be perceived as dealing with personal-baggage-like-stuff, you might consider the title of GOOD STUFF.  or even the bit-too-blatant BUY STUFF.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re: Issue #3 &#8212;<br />
Maybe the MWP didn&#8217;t get what &#8220;stuff&#8221; meant in that context because&#8230; well, I can&#8217;t think of a reason, but since your site may be perceived as dealing with personal-baggage-like-stuff, you might consider the title of GOOD STUFF.  or even the bit-too-blatant BUY STUFF.</p>
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		<title>By: Havi Brooks</title>
		<link>http://www.fluentself.com/blog/biggification/men-with-pens-take-3/#comment-294</link>
		<dc:creator>Havi Brooks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 18:57:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fluentself.com/?p=163#comment-294</guid>
		<description>Ohmygod Brandon, look what you've done! Now Selma totally wants her own boutique. This could be a disaster. 

The Unstuck Duck ... that's hilarious. Actually, that should go on the back of the "What Would Selma Do" t-shirts ... 

Sorry, "t-shirts".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ohmygod Brandon, look what you&#8217;ve done! Now Selma totally wants her own boutique. This could be a disaster. </p>
<p>The Unstuck Duck &#8230; that&#8217;s hilarious. Actually, that should go on the back of the &#8220;What Would Selma Do&#8221; t-shirts &#8230; </p>
<p>Sorry, &#8220;t-shirts&#8221;.</p>
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